Carrying Ashtanga Yoga Forward: Navigating Grief, Legacy, and Lineage

Harmony:
[0:00] Welcome, I'm Harmony Slater, your host of the Finding Harmony podcast. Over the past 20 years, I've taught thousands of yoga teachers and students to explore the intersection betw een ancient wisdom and modern everyday life, using mind-body practices to heal, awaken, and manifest their dreams from the inside out. This podcast is a sanctuary for those feeling overwhelmed by life's challenges. Are you ready to jump in and discover how these challenges aren't actually in.

Music:
[0:32] Music Hi, welcome to the Finding Harmony podcast. I am so happy you're here today.

Harmony:
[0:33] The way, but are the way to Finding Harmony? Let's invite the magic back in.

Harmony:
[0:48] If you are an Ashtanga Yoga practitioner, this episode is especially for you. I think many of us have been I don't know, maybe searching, looking for answers since our beloved teacher, guru, friend, guide, Sherat Joyce passed away suddenly back on November 11th here in North America, November 12th in India.

Harmony:
[1:17] And today, Russell and I are sitting down to chat with two fellow Canadians. I've known David Robson for over 20 years now, and we are going to talk to them a little bit about what it means to carry the wisdom of the Ashtanga Yoga practice and the lineage into the future and how we can move forward. And there's been a lot of talk lately on the Ashtanga Yoga grapevine through social media, through podcasts, through blogs, looking for answers. Different teachers, different people trying to connect and understand where we go now, collectively, individually, what wisdom grief has for us on a personal level, but also as a yoga community, an international yoga community. And so... This conversation feels particularly important because David was one of the teachers who was certified recently in Mysore by Shruti and the Joyce family at the Sharat Yoga Center.

Harmony:
[2:34] And Yelena also received her authorization. And we're not just sitting down to talk to these beautiful souls about this process and revealing how it happened for them. But we're touching on something that I feel is much more important, which is where do we find our strength as a community and the strength in shared memories and in connection to each other and a love for this tradition and this practice and what it actually means to be entrusted with passing on spiritual tradition, a spiritual practice, especially during times of transition.

Harmony:
[3:18] And how we can show up for each other and for ourselves as a place of comfort, as a place of belonging, as a place of support during these times when grief and mourning and uncertainty are prevalent. And so I hope that this conversation brings both a joy and a lightness to your heart. I hope it brings a sense of trust and certainty that whatever path you're on, wherever you are in the cycle of loss or in trying to find yourself again, or maybe you're unaffected by everything that's been going on. that's beautiful too. And I hope that this conversation leaves you feeling inspired and with a sense of strength and a sense of an ability to move forward as an individual, as a practitioner, as a student, as a teacher, as someone who loves the Ashtanga Yoga tradition or lineage, and all of the teachers who have been blessed with this beautiful seed to share, to transmit.

Harmony:
[4:36] To honor and guide others along this path. I know from myself having this conversation, it felt very inspiring and very healing. And I hope that for you, it also brings a deeper sense of unity and healing and fellowship to wherever you are in the world listening to this conversation. We love you, we wish you well, and we hope that you have community and you have teachers on your path that are inspiring and guiding and uplifting and holding that flame bright for the practice and for your own connection to yourself, to the inner guide, and to the teachers within.

Harmony:
[5:36] Hi, welcome to the Finding Harmony podcast. I'm your host, Harmony.

Russell:
[5:40] You want to introduce your co-host? No. I want to say that this episode today is brought to you by Buble. Buble is Canada's soft drink, and it's the drink that Michael Buble drinks when he wants to refresh himself on a Saturday afternoon like this one.

Harmony:
[5:55] Well, we are here, in fact, indeed, with fellow Canadian teachers.

Russell:
[6:00] Oh, really?

Harmony:
[6:01] David Robson from Toronto and Jelena, what's your last name, Jelena?

Jelena:
[6:06] Vesich.

Russell:
[6:07] Vesich.

Harmony:
[6:08] Thank you for pronouncing it for me.

Jelena:
[6:10] Thank you for asking.

David:
[6:12] You're saying Jelena well,

Russell:
[6:13] Though. Jelena Vesich.

Harmony:
[6:14] Are you Canadian or are you just a visitor here like Russell?

Russell:
[6:18] I'm a permanent resident.

Jelena:
[6:20] If I'm a step ahead of you, I am a Canadian.

Russell:
[6:23] I'm definitely looking at becoming a Canadian citizen.

Jelena:
[6:27] I would understand why.

Russell:
[6:28] Because i'm jewish and at some point they could ask to have me flown back so they can put me in a fucking camp so i want to make sure the canadian government says well you know he's a citizen even not just a jewish permanent resident that we can get rid of yeah it's done yeah i do have a lot of family in ontario my great uncle alan is 101 years old if you're listening alan and a great fan of the show uncle alan okay

Harmony:
[6:54] But this show isn't about you ag.

Russell:
[6:56] No we're talking about canada So you guys, where are you? You're in Toronto. Are you from there?

David:
[7:01] I am, yeah. I'm from near the suburbs. Basically, Toronto.

Russell:
[7:05] Wow. Yeah.

Jelena:
[7:06] I'm not.

Harmony:
[7:07] Yeah. And where were you born, Elena?

Jelena:
[7:09] I was born in Sarajevo. So today that would be Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Harmony:
[7:14] The war was...

Jelena:
[7:15] Yeah, the war was...

Harmony:
[7:17] Yeah. Were you there for that?

Jelena:
[7:19] I was there for the first four months. Yeah. Wow. And that's why we came to Canada eventually. We were there for the first... You know, because no one really believed that it was going to happen. Everyone was in a denial. And I remember when like the news started, I was like a kid.

Harmony:
[7:37] Yeah, you must have been like eight or nine or something.

Jelena:
[7:41] And you just, you can't comprehend the idea of civil war as a kid at that time. And then the war started and I remember it. We were always getting ready to run down in the basement of the building. And then eventually like we would be outside playing and then you see the grenades flying over your head as a kid. And so my parents then made a call that we needed to leave. But the problem was, because it's a war, the men couldn't leave unless you had a medical exception. So then it was me, my mom, and my sister.

Jelena:
[8:15] We flew out on the very last flight, which was a cargo plane. So 500 people sitting in a pitch black on the bottom of, like, you know, sitting, because it's a cargo plane. There's no seats. And we left. and that night was the biggest kind of attack that happened in Sarajevo, like when it really started. And then we lived in Serbia as my mom's sister lived there. And then when my dad eventually managed to escape the war, he literally escaped to Croatia because that's also where we had a lot of family. And at that time, it was few countries, including Canada, were bringing in the refugees from former Yugoslavia region and giving priority to people that have been separated because of war. So my parents applied for, I think, Holland, Canada, and Australia. And Canada was the first to respond. I've been here.

Harmony:
[9:17] 30 years.

Jelena:
[9:19] Yeah.

Russell:
[9:20] I was in art school at the time and there was a lot of work around the the issues and plight of the people in Sarajevo.

Harmony:
[9:30] But it's a beautiful city.

Jelena:
[9:32] What do you like about it?

Harmony:
[9:34] Have you been back there?

Jelena:
[9:35] Many times. My grandma's there. I have friends there.

Harmony:
[9:38] I don't know. It reminds me of like a magical little fairy tale land. But it's also really sad. There's like a deep sadness there. And I personally really love that.

Russell:
[9:48] That's why you married me, sweetie, isn't it? You have the same feelings for me.

Harmony:
[9:52] There's like this heavy, dark sadness. But there's also like this magic in it.

Russell:
[9:57] You know And there's the magic as well Yeah,

Jelena:
[10:00] It is When did you go? Do you remember?

Harmony:
[10:03] It was back in 2016 So I guess 10 years ago now Yeah.

Jelena:
[10:09] But what month?

Harmony:
[10:09] It was maybe March Oh.

Jelena:
[10:12] Okay, yeah You need to go in like December If you really want to feel sad Because you got to see all those like Communist, brutalist buildings and there's no sun coming out because we're down in the valley yeah i sure great and dark and we were here and david's like what why did i come here in december i

Harmony:
[10:36] Can imagine because it also they kept the bullet holes from the war and everything it's very like you feel it it's.

Russell:
[10:42] Same in budapest remember that

Harmony:
[10:44] Building but even more in sorry just it's a little intense but.

Jelena:
[10:48] And it's so much better than the way it was. And there's like a lot of fighting about it, because a lot of people want to get things fixed up and as a way of moving. Because in a way, it's like a trigger. And for me, it's a trigger, but I can't even imagine for people living there how difficult that is. But then on the other side, some people see it as a memory, as a reminder of what has happened, which just is true. And then there's a group of people that also use it to keep facilitating the hate and the division between the people because it's their political influence. advantage unfortunately like you know a story repeats itself again and again around the world yeah

Russell:
[11:29] If you can harbor resentment and grievance like that person really needs sympathy but they're often destructive to their environment yeah what do you do with someone who is that damaged

Jelena:
[11:42] Like how do you sympathize with them and show them kindness but their behavior is also very troublesome And I wouldn't say it's okay in any way, you know? Yeah.

Russell:
[11:54] I say this to people sometimes like, well, you know, I have freedom of speech. I can say whatever I want. I can, you know, call you whatever I want to. It's like, well, you don't have freedom of hate speech. I think that's pretty well established.

Jelena:
[12:06] Yeah.

Harmony:
[12:06] We hope. The other thing I thought was really interesting about Sarajevo, just to talk about it a little bit more, Was that it's like an Islamic country, but not the Islam that's like the desert Islam so much. It's more like modern day Islam. Like Turkey? Kind of, yeah, like parts of Turkey, for sure. I mean, Turkey depends where you go. But it felt very, like, nice. Like, not oppressive.

Russell:
[12:37] Like Turkey.

Harmony:
[12:38] Yeah, like parts of Fruity.

Jelena:
[12:40] Depends who you talk to.

Harmony:
[12:41] Yeah, and what part you're in.

Russell:
[12:43] I feel the same about the United States, actually.

Harmony:
[12:46] Yeah, maybe.

Russell:
[12:47] Parts of it are fine.

Jelena:
[12:48] Yeah, there's nice people there, I hear.

Russell:
[12:50] What attracts you to the magic darkness, David?

David:
[12:55] Of Yelena?

Russell:
[12:56] You seem very much in love. The two of you seem very much in love. And there's a real kind of special chemistry there. And every time I've seen you or heard about you, it's like I've seen the two of you having your special magic chemistry. And I'm wondering, so what attracted you to the darkness? What's there for you?

David:
[13:16] I think she hid it really well. And I didn't really discover it.

Jelena:
[13:22] Two years into it, and David's like, I thought you said you dealt with your shit. And I was like, well, David, this is generational trauma. It's coming up because I'm 38.

David:
[13:32] No. Yeah, no, I didn't suspect any of it was there at all. So it's true. It seems so nice.

Russell:
[13:38] What did your folks do? David, they're from Toronto.

David:
[13:42] My mother is an immigrant too, but she came over when she was a baby from England.

Russell:
[13:47] England?

David:
[13:48] Yeah.

Jelena:
[13:48] Wasn't she like a month old or something?

David:
[13:50] Like two months? Queen Mary on the ship. Yeah.

Russell:
[13:52] Oh, an Anglo-Saxon.

David:
[13:54] Yeah. And my father is born near Toronto, but of Scottish heritage.

Russell:
[14:02] Yeah, like harmony. Have you been out to Calgary, which is like the most Scottish city in the world?

Harmony:
[14:07] He's been here. Have you?

David:
[14:09] Once, I think.

Jelena:
[14:10] I've never been here.

Harmony:
[14:11] You've only been here once? Yeah. Oh, and I was fortunate enough to go for coffee with you on your one trip to Calgary.

Russell:
[14:18] Oh, that's good. It's done. That's bucket list marked. That's fantastic.

David:
[14:24] I didn't notice all the Scottish people. I didn't know.

Russell:
[14:27] All of the street names. And Calgary itself is a...

Harmony:
[14:31] It's a Scottish town.

Russell:
[14:32] It's a fishing village on the west coast of Scotland. So they came here and they settled the place, realized that there were natives and they were going to have trouble with that. And they've kind of been negotiating the space ever since.

Jelena:
[14:44] Oh, wow.

Harmony:
[14:46] I'm curious because I've known David for a long time. We met in Mysore in 2005, I think.

Russell:
[14:53] I have a follow-up question about his parents.

Harmony:
[14:55] Okay, go for it.

Russell:
[14:56] I did want to know what your parents, what does your dad do?

David:
[14:59] Well, he doesn't do much because he's dead.

Russell:
[15:02] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David:
[15:03] He was a social worker. Before that, this is interesting, he was a Catholic priest.

Russell:
[15:09] Yeah, yeah. A lot of pieces fell into place there. Yeah. Okay, good.

David:
[15:14] He left the post. I've got a picture of him on the wall over here. He was actually a missionary. Oh, fantastic. He was wearing the white robes and everything.

Harmony:
[15:22] Yeah. Did he leave before or after he met your mother?

David:
[15:26] He said before.

Harmony:
[15:27] But we're not sure.

Russell:
[15:29] So now I understand you completely. So that's good. So you decided, like your dad, to take the cloth.

David:
[15:38] It's a calling.

Russell:
[15:39] Yeah, it's a calling. That's right. When did that happen for you? Do you want to talk about him meeting him in Mysore? Or do you want to find out why he got there first?

Harmony:
[15:46] Okay, let's talk about it. Why did you go into yoga all those years ago when it was weird?

Russell:
[15:51] Why you?

David:
[15:52] Yeah, I was always into mysticism. I think it was Yoda, actually, you know, Star Wars.

Harmony:
[15:57] Yeah.

Russell:
[15:57] Yeah, for sure.

David:
[15:58] Yoda kind of turned a whole generation.

Harmony:
[16:01] Turned a whole generation of us into the water pieces.

Russell:
[16:04] Matthew Sweeney said that in his book. He said, yeah, it's because of Star Wars. It's like yoga.

Harmony:
[16:09] Me too.

Russell:
[16:10] Yeah, for sure.

David:
[16:11] So I was into the whole special powers. And then experience.

Harmony:
[16:15] Yeah, learn to float is coming into my mind as you're talking about this.

David:
[16:20] Experiences with drugs yeah trying to recreate those experiences yeah states of mind

Russell:
[16:27] Yeah yeah yeah same yeah

David:
[16:29] Lsd was informative

Russell:
[16:31] I just said this to richard and mary two days ago that our beloved dear rolf he said to us use lsd kick the door in oh really that was the main advice i took from him but i'd already done it so it's like already He

Harmony:
[16:49] Said once you kick down the door, then you do the yoga.

Russell:
[16:52] Yeah. But now you know where to go. If you don't know where to go, you're just like looking for good sensation.

David:
[16:58] Yeah. Oh.

Russell:
[16:59] Yeah. You should be terrified while you do yoga.

David:
[17:02] I haven't done it a long time.

Harmony:
[17:03] No. Do it once. You don't need to do it again.

Russell:
[17:06] Or like 40 times is fine.

David:
[17:09] I think it kind of doesn't spoil you, but it turns you. Yeah.

Russell:
[17:13] Yeah, for sure.

David:
[17:14] Yeah. I think this is in the same vein in a way.

Russell:
[17:17] Yeah. Yeah. And so when the word yoga comes up to your mind, you see it like on a pamphlet on the side of a grocery store. You say, oh, that's for me. I'm going to go to that class.

David:
[17:29] Yeah. So I had read about yoga and yoga was emerging, you know, in the 90s a lot more. It was showing up on the streets in studios. I was at university, U of T, studying comparative religion. They called it back then.

Jelena:
[17:44] What's it called now?

David:
[17:45] Religious studies.

Jelena:
[17:46] Oh, because.

David:
[17:46] Because you can't compare them.

Harmony:
[17:48] That's right. They're all unique.

David:
[17:51] Somebody told me that I should go to this class, that I would probably like it. And I did like it. It was very relaxing. It was Sivananda.

Harmony:
[17:58] Okay. Oh, good.

David:
[18:00] And I remember that, like, lying down, you know, and that deep release at the end. And Yel and I have talked about this. We think a lot of people have that deep surrender, that first time maybe, or, you know, afterwards. And then they keep going back, hoping to get there again. Yeah.

Russell:
[18:16] Good luck.

Jelena:
[18:17] Yeah. But this was like, and sometime after he fell on the altar, broke the altar at the studio.

David:
[18:25] Yeah, I had a little accident, but they were very blind about it.

Harmony:
[18:30] Was that your first class? You broke the altar?

David:
[18:32] No, it was like I was well in. I was like maybe three months or four months in. I fell on the altar. But then from there, things were coming to Toronto back then, probably a little slower than some other places in the world, quicker than others. And so a Bikram studio opened just down the road. And I ended up going to Bikram yoga.

Russell:
[18:54] Did you become a sex slave? Almost.

David:
[18:57] So I never did the training, but that's how I ended up teaching yoga. The guy that owned the studio taught me how to teach. Oh, wow. Which involved a whistle. And a stopwatch.

Jelena:
[19:08] And tiny shorts.

David:
[19:09] And tiny shorts. And then I memorized the trips.

Russell:
[19:13] Well, everybody was required to wear the same tiny shorts. That's amazing.

David:
[19:18] Yeah, it was amazing. Wow.

Harmony:
[19:19] Okay, but then when we met, you were doing handstands, like on the beach with Ron Reed.

David:
[19:26] Oh, cool. With Ron Reed?

Harmony:
[19:27] Well, maybe, I don't know. First you were with Ron Reed and then doing handstands and then the beach yoga or yoga by the beach.

Russell:
[19:34] Which beach? In India?

Harmony:
[19:36] No, in Toronto.

Russell:
[19:37] You went to the beach in Toronto?

Harmony:
[19:39] He knows what I'm talking about.

Russell:
[19:40] Hudson River?

David:
[19:41] What? Back in like 2000, because I kept exploring other styles at the same time. Ashtanga was also, in a way, in a form in Toronto with Ron Reed and Downward Dog Yoga. And so I started going there and they had a Mysore program as well. So around, yeah, around 2000, I started going daily to that. And then I became part owner at this beach yoga, which was a downward dog. Yeah. Good memory.

Harmony:
[20:08] Yeah. Yoga by the beach.

David:
[20:09] Yeah.

Harmony:
[20:10] But did you go see Shirat or Guruji and Shirat when they were on tour?

David:
[20:14] Yeah, they came to Montreal.

Harmony:
[20:16] Yeah.

David:
[20:17] Yeah. I saw them there. That was 2002. That was my first time meeting Shiratji in 2002.

Harmony:
[20:22] Amazing. Yeah.

David:
[20:24] And then he said, come that year. And so that's my first trip to India that year, too.

Harmony:
[20:29] Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about that trip when you went to India your first time.

Russell:
[20:34] That was Lakshmi Purim, 2002.

David:
[20:37] I started in Lakshmi Purim, but they were just moving it over. So I went to Lakshmi Purim, but they just shut down the Shala there.

Russell:
[20:44] Okay. So they were opening Volkham. My first trip was probably like two months later.

Harmony:
[20:49] I think you were there at the same time.

Russell:
[20:51] Yeah, we were there almost the same time. Was Keno there when you were there? Yeah. Yeah, that was the same trip for me because I was on the tail end of her trip.

David:
[20:57] You were studying with Patavi Joyce?

Russell:
[21:00] Yeah.

David:
[21:00] Yeah, in Gokulam. I was studying with the Sharat in Gokulam too.

Russell:
[21:04] Oh, you were one of those.

David:
[21:05] Yeah. Yes.

Harmony:
[21:07] He was like Sharat's first student ever. Why not?

Russell:
[21:10] Now more pieces are falling into place for me.

David:
[21:14] Todd was there a year or two later.

Russell:
[21:18] Oh, man.

David:
[21:18] There was a couple of us. I stayed there four and a half months that first time just with him and like slowly people were leaving. There was like three or four of us by the end of that trip.

Russell:
[21:28] You know, Paul and Rochelle in Toronto, of course.

David:
[21:31] Yeah, we co-hosted Sharadji here in Toronto.

Russell:
[21:33] Yeah, that's right. Yeah. They were old friends of mine and I used to go and stay with my dad and I stayed with him once in Toronto and that season when they decided to go study with Sharadji instead of Guruji, they were living with me at the time and it just it threw such a wrench into our relationship it was so bananas and then but

Harmony:
[21:58] It was 2000 i think that.

Russell:
[21:59] Was it was much it was much later but i'm just remembering them making that decision to transfer over to but

Harmony:
[22:05] I thought the problem was they couldn't sign up for the shallot they got yeah that's right like rejected and sent to charade's class.

Russell:
[22:12] They got rejected from Sinitra's class. And then they also got rejected from Patabi Joyce's Pranayama class.

Harmony:
[22:19] Yeah, because you had to be studying with Patabi Joyce to do his Pranayama.

Russell:
[22:21] And then I'm doing the Pranayama class, but I'm doing it. And then I'm going home and practicing. And Paul was like, can you teach me? And I was like, I don't know if I can teach you. And he's like, oh, you're an asshole. I was like, yeah, I'm kind of an asshole. And it just kind of blew up a relationship.

Harmony:
[22:34] Because I remember that trip because I got there in January. And it was before there was applications or anything like that. Yeah. And there was already, I think, 200 people or almost 200 people signed up for the main shala. Yeah, it was closed. And we came in and we said, oh, we're here to register with Guruji. And Shira's like, oh, he's full. And Saraswati came out and she said, no, they're old students. They can register. And she pulled us into the office. And Paul and Rochelle were right behind us. And he said to them, no, you're coming with me.

Russell:
[23:07] Oh, that's brutal.

Harmony:
[23:10] Drama.

Russell:
[23:11] The drama, it's more to the point, like, to talk about for our listeners, how bananas and Byzantine, the drama and the politics were just between the family members. Yeah. Never mind all the rest of us and our junior high bullshit.

Harmony:
[23:28] Like 20 years ago.

Russell:
[23:30] 20 years ago. To the table.

Harmony:
[23:31] A long time back yeah.

David:
[23:32] It was a lot to negotiate you know

Harmony:
[23:34] Yeah yeah and even like there in the scene and maybe you can speak to this a little bit you know you and todd studying with charade it was like a totally different kind of group compared to the people who were at the shallot there was like discrimination involved yeah.

Russell:
[23:49] There was you wouldn't eat with those people

David:
[23:53] We would go into the main shallot the big shallot on sunday and do the lead class Yeah.

Russell:
[24:00] Infuriating.

David:
[24:01] And then, yeah, it was a funny separation, though. I was totally identified with being his student. I didn't think of it as being less because I had already decided when I met them in Montreal that I wanted to study with Stratton. Wow. He was my age, you know, and I could sort of feel his practice, and I was really into that.

Harmony:
[24:22] Yeah. And the student always chooses the teacher. That's the truth of it. as a student you resonate with the teacher and you choose the teacher actually the teacher doesn't choose you no you choose the teacher.

David:
[24:35] Yeah when i arrived too because they were just switching the opening up the new shala in gokulam it wasn't open yet so everybody was practicing saraswati's old house

Russell:
[24:45] I lived there

David:
[24:46] Okay yeah yeah and everybody that even was going to go to the main shop i remember that year it was like really busy there was 40 people or something and before they had the rugs and stuff.

Russell:
[24:56] Yeah, it was massive. It was so full with 40 people. Yeah.

David:
[25:00] So we were all practicing together for three or four days or a week or something. And then The shallow opened and they went there and then we stayed.

Russell:
[25:08] Yeah, I remember that.

David:
[25:09] I was happy with it. It was different, but I was getting attention from Chur.

Jelena:
[25:13] But he was also falling asleep too.

David:
[25:15] Yeah, he would fall asleep during that.

Jelena:
[25:16] He'd be so tired.

David:
[25:17] Yeah. His like flip phone, you know.

Russell:
[25:19] How many people were in the room with you?

David:
[25:22] I think 12 max. Wow. Yeah. We were down the hill at Saraswati's place down there and then across the street from the Gokulam Chalet on the second floor.

Harmony:
[25:33] Yeah, on the second floor there.

David:
[25:34] Like in 2004 or 5. I was just talking to Todd Bowman about these years. He's such a good memory.

Jelena:
[25:41] Oh, my God. He has a crazy memory. He can almost memorize, like, whose mat was where.

David:
[25:46] I think all the LSD muddled my...

Russell:
[25:50] You might have muddled some things. Yeah. I heard this about memory once, and I'm sorry to go off on a tangent, but if you remember your last holiday, this is the way that people who specialize in memory, they memorize, like, a list of things. If you remember your last holiday and your last family get-together, I would bet that everyone here in the conversation can remember where everyone was sitting around the table.

Harmony:
[26:14] I can't.

Russell:
[26:15] What was your last holiday meeting? But I can remember our last Easter that we spent, the very last Easter that we ever spent with your family, because I would never do it again. I remember it was your dad, your right, you were to my left, then your mom, then Adam, then Amanda, then Ari and Addison.

Harmony:
[26:35] But you could just be making that up.

Russell:
[26:37] No, I'm not making it up. But people who do memorization, what they do is that they'll put a card, like if you have to memorize a basket of fruit, it's like you put a card in place of each of those people. So banana, orange, apple, peaches. And that's how you memorize a group like that, is you create a table that people sit around. And so the yoga room is the same. I can remember where people put their mats.

Harmony:
[27:01] Sometimes.

David:
[27:02] Yeah.

Harmony:
[27:03] Sometimes. I think the more important thing is your emotional connection to the people. That's what makes memory actually cemented, is if it's an emotional connection.

Russell:
[27:12] Kind of sociopath doesn't have an emotional connection with people.

Harmony:
[27:15] Yeah, but you can't have an emotional connection with 80 people. So you have an emotional connection with three people in the room or five people in the room, and you remember where those people were because there's a relationship.

Russell:
[27:25] And that's why family works. Yeah. So they use family.

Harmony:
[27:27] Anyway.

Russell:
[27:28] A lot of these people were treated as though they were our family.

Harmony:
[27:30] They were, actually. A lot of them felt like family. I'm sure you and Todd feel like family, too, after practicing. Yeah.

Jelena:
[27:39] Yeah, it's like there's a connection between two of you, like, for sure.

David:
[27:44] Yeah, we're brothers in that sense.

Russell:
[27:46] I'd like to talk about one thing, because you guys are phenomenally attractive teachers. I mean that in that students come to you. And I remember realizing this early on. I was staying at Paul and Rochelle's house in Toronto, and they were telling me about this guy, David, that had opened up a class. Paul and Rochelle had been there for ages, and they'd always had 10 students. because every time they would get a new student another student would just fuck off and leave and say i'm out of here peace out you guys are difficult and i love paul and rochelle they're a little difficult and so they can never get more than 10 because somebody would always just like no i'm fucking done with this yeah yeah and then like you opened a class and suddenly there was 50 people.

Harmony:
[28:36] It wasn't even a pop-up class. It was a pop-up shallow. It was like a pop-up restaurant in the middle.

Russell:
[28:40] And it was like, wait, fucking 50. And like, at that point, Paul and Rochelle, I think really learned the lesson that it was them.

David:
[28:50] I don't know. Do you think so?

Russell:
[28:52] Yeah, I do. That they gave up teaching because they realized that they had been hammering away. They just thought it was Toronto. They thought Toronto just didn't have the people to support Ashala, you know, they're like, why don't we have 50 people? I was like, David is why you don't have 50 people. Can you tell us about that? What do you have that brings people into the room?

David:
[29:13] I remember contacting them because we tried to maintain a connection, even though we were in competition, whatever. Yeah, sure.

Harmony:
[29:21] Your family right you got to maintain the connection it's.

Russell:
[29:25] Also this is my herd this is your herd yeah

Harmony:
[29:27] But still like when you know each other and you're in this ashtanga world it is like a family like even if you don't like someone you're gonna see them again yeah you're gonna end up at the same lunch you're gonna spend time with them especially back then so it's like how can we like work together yeah.

David:
[29:43] Yeah we co-hosted strati together and yeah we're trying to work together

Harmony:
[29:48] Yeah but what makes your way of teaching more appealing or more accessible for students like like are you less strict do you let people do handstands what is it no.

David:
[30:02] No you were teaching exactly like she doesn't think so

Jelena:
[30:04] I've never met paul and rochelle david has had a reputation as being extremely strict

Harmony:
[30:11] Interesting and.

Jelena:
[30:13] Very much like you know like there's the gatekeepers and this is how we do it. So he was known for like mimicking the mysaur setting as best as possible. So I'm just adding that comment. It was very like, and still the room is very strict and structured.

David:
[30:31] Yeah, it got it's softer now.

Jelena:
[30:34] Yeah, but you were very like,

David:
[30:36] Yeah, I was always just copying. Sure. I mean, I wasn't speaking with an Indian accent. I was just trying to model it on exactly what he was doing because I figured that was my job.

Harmony:
[30:46] Maybe people really enjoyed that too.

David:
[30:48] That's what I think they enjoyed, yeah. Because I enjoyed going to Mysore. You enjoyed it. You know, we got so much out of that.

Harmony:
[30:54] Yeah.

David:
[30:54] So it was like, well, the point of this place, we even call it a Mysore room, is to make that here.

Harmony:
[31:00] Yeah.

Jelena:
[31:00] Yeah. And that was the reason why I came to the studio in 2009. So just a year after the Ashtanga Yoga Center of Toronto like opened the main one the way it is now. And the reason why I came was because of this reputation, like it's a studio where you will learn it the way it is being taught in Mysore, India. There's no watering down. There's no fluffing things around. There's no putting stuff in or taking things out. And to me, like when I was ready, like I went to different studios as everyone else. And you try different styles, like looking for what speaks to you. It was one of David's students was teaching at this like generic kind of vinyasa studio, but was teaching half primary with the Sanskrit count. And so I was like, what is this? Like, I wanted that. And so that was the reason why I came to the studio too, is that I couldn't travel to India at the time. So this would be the next best thing. Like I wanted to learn it the way you guys were learning it.

Harmony:
[32:02] What was it that like attracted you to the tradition? I'm so curious because you said you're like dabbling in yoga.

Jelena:
[32:09] And I came from a dance background. I was a ballet dancer and I come from Eastern Europe. So I think part of like the discipline and the rigidity is what speaks to my soul. It's like a comfort language in a way. But then I also was like curious about mindfulness practices. And if I was going to learn a mindfulness practice, I don't want the Western interpretation of it, like a true teaching.

Russell:
[32:36] Authenticity.

Jelena:
[32:37] Yeah. And so that's why I came to the studio.

Russell:
[32:41] Yeah. Yeah. I think that was certainly true for Harmony and I is that we both were like looking for authenticity in the experience. I think that's really the magic of what Eddie's Shala was in New York for a certain period. For a certain period. For like, you know, 20 years, it was, this was the most Indian you could get in the city of New York. You couldn't go into an Indian restaurant and have a more Indian experience of going into Eddie's place. Mm-hmm.

Harmony:
[33:06] Do you feel like your shell is like that in Toronto?

David:
[33:09] It's different than Eddie's.

Harmony:
[33:10] Yeah, but like the Indian experience. Do people come in and feel like they're in India or do they come in and feel like they're in like your universe?

David:
[33:18] My universe, I think. It wasn't, I mean, we were teaching the dogma of Ashdanga, but there isn't really, I don't have the statues.

Harmony:
[33:29] Yeah, because you're a Catholic at heart.

David:
[33:36] Yeah that's right

Russell:
[33:37] That's interesting because you could have gone the other way you could have said because i'm catholic i want more color i want more experiential embodiment in the room i'm not catholic but no are you anglican are you dismalian one

Harmony:
[33:52] Of those religious studies and comparative religions play into your yoga journey yeah.

David:
[33:57] I'm bewildered that's what i am i I have no idea.

Russell:
[34:01] Wow, and you got baptized in that, did you? That's good.

David:
[34:05] Baptized in the wilderness.

Russell:
[34:07] That's a book title, right?

David:
[34:09] Yeah, it is. Write it down.

Russell:
[34:10] Which one of us is going to write that book? He is. He's going to baptize in the wilderness?

Harmony:
[34:14] Yeah, he already has books. He can write another one.

Russell:
[34:17] Called Baptized in the wilderness? It's autobiographical, obviously.

Harmony:
[34:20] Autobiographical. Come on, David.

Russell:
[34:21] Is he writing it, Sam? Yeah. That's good.

Harmony:
[34:24] It's hot. That's good. You heard it here first, folks. I'm curious. Okay, so in your shallot, But what's important as far as like the vibe? I think that's an interesting thing because people are attracted to that, to the energy, to the vibe.

David:
[34:38] I think it was an easier sell back in 2000 and aughts and 10s.

Harmony:
[34:42] Yeah.

David:
[34:43] It's become more difficult. So you've had to change it. It changed at the shower too, though, in my story.

Russell:
[34:50] Yeah.

David:
[34:50] So when people were coming in initially, it was all about discipline. I was doing the like get up early thing and practice first and then teach. And then I was following up with people, like chasing them down if they didn't come.

Harmony:
[35:04] Where were you?

David:
[35:06] Where were you? Why weren't you here?

Russell:
[35:08] Yeah.

David:
[35:09] I was very, very driven.

Harmony:
[35:11] Yeah. Yeah.

David:
[35:12] That's my practice. But then in the teaching too and in the delivery of it.

Harmony:
[35:17] Yeah.

David:
[35:17] Then it was all about practice and commitment, right? But it's kind of, it's changed now for sure. It's much softer.

Harmony:
[35:24] How and why?

David:
[35:25] Because we have all grown up, right? The practice isn't the asanas, and it's definitely not the sequence. And I think what was driving me was the idea of the discipline and holding it was creating a lot of rigidity.

Harmony:
[35:40] That's interesting.

David:
[35:42] I think it supported other people's rigidity, too.

Harmony:
[35:45] Yeah.

David:
[35:46] Accessed it. It was very super egoic in a way. And so I could guilt people into being there or push them into being there, and it works.

Jelena:
[35:54] It's an incredible energy.

David:
[35:55] Like 150 people coming at one point in the morning. But half of them would have hated me, you know, like they hate their father, you know, whatever, or their priest.

Jelena:
[36:05] Yeah, no, but it's true.

David:
[36:06] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And at some point, it was just like, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to be creating so much mental tension and judgment. when you're doing the practice.

Harmony:
[36:18] Yeah.

Jelena:
[36:18] And then we also got together.

David:
[36:20] So that created a lot of shit. Well, I think it was all very similar. I think everything kind of led to the same spot. But yeah, when Yellen and I got together, then there was like a shift. There was kind of a big, what you guys would know what I'm talking about. A lot of things changed. And then in a way, I couldn't kind of maintain that higher than.

Harmony:
[36:40] Yeah, yeah.

David:
[36:41] And yeah, it was like maybe less, I don't know, less effective as a motivator because it wasn't like this, I don't know how to say it, like faultless kind of approach. You could be me.

Harmony:
[36:52] I'm perfect and you need to strive for perfection.

David:
[36:56] This is the ideal.

Russell:
[36:58] And so did you feel that the breakup and going with Yelena made you somehow vulnerable to that brush?

David:
[37:06] Yeah, for sure it did.

Russell:
[37:07] Wow.

David:
[37:08] Yeah.

Jelena:
[37:09] I remember there was days when he would go to the studio to teach in the morning and he couldn't do the opening chant. Like he couldn't stand in front of the people and do the chant. Even though at that point, we called it kind of like the purge. And it was so funny, like people that got really mad at David and I and that left were the same people that, you know, a few years before that were in the change room and were showing up every day to the practice, but then every day in the change room, like talking really negatively about David. And it was this, what David was talking about, where he created that energy, but people were almost fearing him. And they were being guilted into showing up. And the daddy issues start to show up around that. And so when him and I get together, these are the first people that start to pass on strong judgments. One of the funny things is that some of those people have returned to the studio since.

Jelena:
[38:07] Quite a few. Yeah. At the moment, what we were doing was reflecting something in their lives too, you know, they were going through the same thing, or they weren't feeling brave enough to do the same thing to pursue happiness over what socially is acceptable and all of these things. But all that I remember David, like being in front of the room, not being able to do the chant or starting to do the chant and having a complete freeze chant that he's been doing at that point for like 20 years.

David:
[38:39] 15 years.

Jelena:
[38:40] 15 years, all of a sudden being like, I can't do it, you know, and feeling that kind of, you've let them down or...

David:
[38:48] Yeah, I had to find my place again inside of that. I was walking in with a mask before. And it was comfortable and stuff. But then when I took the mask off, it took me a while to be okay with that too, you know? And then, oh, the mask wasn't me. And what I was offering wasn't that mask.

Jelena:
[39:06] Vulnerability like it didn't come slowly it was like right there like in front of the room forget the chant yep

Harmony:
[39:15] Yeah and it's interesting i love that you keep bringing up like this projection of the parents because i think that's so natural for students to do you know we project our parent figure onto our teachers even when you're an adult there's always like transference and counter-transference and all kinds of interesting psychological dynamics going on. And even for you as a teacher, you take on that role as like the father or the mother. And when you do have this kind of breakup, you know, a divorce, a change of partners or a change of values or whatever, you know, is happening. There's a sense of, yeah, like losing face in a way, but also having to redefine yourself in a role and within a relationship with your students, which, can be kind of challenging to.

David:
[40:05] Say the least

Harmony:
[40:06] Yeah and you have to do a lot of like deep work within yourself to hold that space where you're like okay i have to ask myself some questions here and figure out who i am now in this new dynamic or in this new relationship in a way.

Russell:
[40:22] I'd like to ask you because i'm kind of struggling with this myself as a um aging yoga i'm not a yoga teacher though i'm your assistant whenever you call me to show up with you and i retired as a yoga teacher but there was a point where i was militantly orthodox and took so much pride and so much a part of my identity was being a militantly orthodox person that was you know maybe funny and people like but like i was there to again as you said so beautifully transmit what batabi Joyce and Shraddh and Saraswati had taught me. But really, I was teaching Guy Donahue's class, but I was there as a flag bearer of Mysore, you know?

David:
[41:10] Yeah, that's like that too, for sure. Shraddh soldiers.

Harmony:
[41:14] Right, Shraddh soldiers.

Russell:
[41:16] And so, yeah, I've had a whole life and history of things that interrupted at points being an Asanga yoga teacher that were personal and professional. But coming back to the room now, when I come back to the room, I often encounter chaos, orthodox chaos, and understanding that, you know, well, this is a different time, and people now get to be themselves, and the role of teacher as a fascist dictator is a dinosaur. And now we're kind of building a kind of collective identity together, and we're engaging with what the student needs, which I hate We went to a class in Sweden, and everyone was exactingly orthodox. And it was like,

Harmony:
[42:04] Ugh. But in like a really soft, gentle way. It was really interesting. Oh, this is.

Russell:
[42:07] So nice that people just do what they're fucking told.

Harmony:
[42:11] Well, you teach a lot of workshops and go and travel and see different people in their home environments around the world. And so I think you can relate. You go into some rooms, and it's like an abstract painting. And then you go into other rooms, and it's like a perfect portrait.

David:
[42:26] It yeah for sure how

Russell:
[42:28] Do you manage that

David:
[42:29] We met the studios a little bit when we're invited we look at what yeah we ended up going some places where it was just too much and they hated us like yeah they just wouldn't

Jelena:
[42:41] Yeah at some point like i remember being in some places and i was like why did you invite us and why am i here because when i go over and i try to correct something meaning like assuming actually i should say assuming like you paid money and this is what you want from me what you expect from me and then they would get into a fight with me about why am i changing the position of their feet or like telling and i was like because you're

Russell:
[43:07] Being told to

Jelena:
[43:08] If you showed up i just for this weekend let's do it this way and then you do it whatever other way because you showed up here And at first, it was same as what you're saying, Russell. It was, like, really hard. And we were, like, being super orthodox about it, very strict, like, telling people, like, no, that's wrong. You can't do that pose. And why are you doing this pose? And then we realized, like, over the years, which is, I think, like, just aging and wisdom, I think. I don't know. Exhaustion. Exhaustion. We just now turn a blind eye.

Russell:
[43:42] Yeah.

Jelena:
[43:42] You know, like, when people are doing things that we think that, they shouldn't or let's say they're doing way more poses than they should and we think like you're actually going to hurt your body like then we just stop physically assisting at that point and we still let them be there and then we you know talk or we say something and we say like well if you went and you practiced with our teacher like this is how it's done and if you come to our shala this is how it's done but when we travel we definitely have had to let go and let the abstract painting just be abstract painting. You know, I like that analogy. And otherwise it becomes too stressful for us, too stressful for students. And because they're not necessarily our students, we don't know the story behind what is happening and who has thought them bad. And often people are doing something because a teacher has told them.

David:
[44:43] Yeah.

Jelena:
[44:43] We've had to soften.

David:
[44:44] I think if we have enough time with people, we can convince them, sway them a little bit, you know? And if it's like a few days or a week, you're not going to change things. So it's better to have a positive effect, a positive presence there than just spend the week being no, no, no, don't.

Russell:
[45:02] Yeah.

Harmony:
[45:03] Shaking fingers.

Jelena:
[45:04] Yeah, that's what people always like. They think that's how we teach. You know what was one very interesting? One of our students started with David like a long time ago. And like David's studio, and I say David's studio, this is before I was part of it, was the very first yoga studio that they ever walked into. And it's funny, we have so many people in our room that they've never done anything but my source style. We were the studio of the neighborhood. They walked in and to them it made perfect sense that you would learn pose by pose. The teacher would teach it slowly to you. You know, all of these things that intimidate people coming from the vinyasa and different lab classes.

Jelena:
[45:43] And so the student of ours, she ended up going, she was traveling somewhere and she went to the Ashtanga studio, but it was kind of Ashtanga interpretive, you know, like an interpretive dance.

Harmony:
[45:55] Yes, we know this kind.

Jelena:
[45:57] Yeah. And she came back and it was the first time that she did the practice, not at our studio. And she was shocked at how disturbed she was by the chaos in the room, that there was blankets and straps and blocks and everyone's doing a different version of all the poses. And when she came back, she realized, she's like, the structure actually creates this like really safe and calm container. And how much she appreciated that this is the way we have been teaching and continue to teach. So this kind of going back to this idea of orthodox where it can, if it's done in a proper way, it is actually very supportive.

Harmony:
[46:43] Yeah, I think there's definitely an argument for that. I mean, I remember going to Richard Freeman's Mysore class. I remember going to Nancy Gilgoff's Mysore class as a very traditional, very like only Mysore India doing Mysore style as a practitioner teacher and the current today's. And then and being like completely dysregulated by the rooms because they were, let's say, so creative and expressive.

Russell:
[47:15] There's so much research.

Harmony:
[47:16] So much research, haven't you? But it's interesting because I feel like my teachings evolved. Not I don't think that I think I'm actually still pretty traditional teacher when it comes to my source style. But I think like you, I don't hold a regular space. I'm always in someone else's room and someone else's space. So when in that capacity, I kind of actually enjoy that role where I just get to help people's practices a little bit and I'm not like there to change their entire lives. I think if I were to hold my own room regularly again, it would be a much stricter space than the one that I teach when I'm traveling and visiting and holding workshops and retreats, you know?

David:
[47:59] A home studio is still, it's still strict. I mean, it's not like it used to be in the sense, I think the mindset behind it has changed, but basically the options are the same.

Jelena:
[48:09] Yeah, it's just that the delivery.

Harmony:
[48:12] Yeah. But there's something to this also, like I always get a little perplexed when students can't do Ekapada Shershasana or like behind the head. And primariams are like, okay, whatever, you can get through primary without doing it. But if you can't do Ekipadashur Shasana, you can't do Dweipadashur Shasana. You can't do Yogi Nidrasana. You can't do any of the first third of third series. Like, where are you going with this? What's the point? Yeah.

David:
[48:38] If we have people come visit us and then for a couple of days, whatever, we'll just like, welcome. Yeah. And we make space. We just talk behind their back. But we don't talk to them. And then if they decide they're going to stay or if they're moving or something, they have to get with the program. Because that approach, it doesn't make sense from the rest of the room. It kind of throws everything off in a way. Like, well, why are they doing that? Some people have certain conditions and there's always exceptions.

Harmony:
[49:08] That's true.

David:
[49:09] But in our room, for the people that are coming all the time, then we need to keep it organized.

Harmony:
[49:15] Yeah, and I think there's also something to maybe just like, you know, at a certain stage in your practice, maybe you don't do Aikapadasa Shasana or Dvipadasa Shasana, and maybe you do Pinchamayarasana or Mayarasana or some of these other postures that are more accessible for your body. but that's as you're saying a more case-by-case basis where you're really able to work with the student and also find out what their goals are for me I don't really see much point in third series postures if you're just doing yoga to maintain the health of your body I don't know about you but like as I've aged I'm sort of like yeah they're fun but like I don't need to do those in my daily life in a way right like I don't need to you know stand up with my leg behind my head I don't need that range of motion to be a healthy human i.

David:
[50:01] Agree totally and i think it's just driven too by by what somebody wants like there are we do have people that are in their 60s still doing third series you know but they didn't learn it in their 60s they were doing it before and oh cute things to mind then they've got degeneration of the discs in the neck and stuff so they can't put it on their head

Harmony:
[50:20] Anymore yeah.

David:
[50:21] Yeah so so now we're trying to figure out how to to get into the poses without having that happen. Yeah. Without any weight on the head. But she wants to do that. And where she wants to modify, that's fine. And we're not really progressing so much now. But I'm impressed to maintain the practice. She comes every day. She's got an incredible practice. I had a terrible shoulder injury recently. for a long time. I was really restricted. And I had to keep reminding Shratt that I couldn't do things like catching or whatever, because it would make it so much worse.

Harmony:
[50:56] Yeah.

David:
[50:57] But he also kept giving me poses too. I'd be like, really? Do what you can. Yeah. And I would come every year and say, this is still bothering me. Should I just do primary? And he's like, no, no, do everything.

Harmony:
[51:13] Yeah, which is beautiful.

Jelena:
[51:15] Yeah and that was a big change too that happened you know watching him too like with age and experience like the softness that came out in his teachings oh yeah it totally changed the way he was all like very like oh good very good yeah started talking

David:
[51:34] To you in the back yeah

Jelena:
[51:35] You know when he's pulling you and he's good oh so good and i'm like dying my arms out like heels off the floor i'm like this is a shit show he's like very good it makes sense that watching him we

David:
[51:50] Change yeah i guess we're still reflecting the the shallow

Russell:
[51:53] It's interesting one of the things that really kind of helped me was i was reading desga char's book and he was talking about croma And thinking about how I organize and structure the Meister room in terms of Krama was helpful, because I couldn't stomach how I could have different standards for different people. It's like my old student, she sits there in the corner, Rethel, and she listens to her earpods. She listens to music. It's just the way it is. and then another student is going through a highly rigid orthodox structure to get through third series and then i've got like sydney and then i've got frank who's just like struggling in the beginning part of second series because i felt like he needed some backbends i'm like how do i rationalize this to a guest teacher who's subbing for me without being sick to my stomach

Russell:
[52:49] And then desiccate jar taught me how to in that if you think about that pitabi joyce and sharat were masters and really specialists at vinyasa krama of a perfection system vinyasa krama perfection system and then you have some people in the room who do perfection system and they're probably going to teach yoga at some point and they may even take over the shala for you at some point They really need to know. And then you've got somebody else who's 70 years old and needs to do some backbending. Maybe they're doing a krama for their health. And Sherat would even talk about this. What do you do for somebody who's sick? And you have to devise something for them that's sick. You have to devise a krama for them because they're sick. And then Harmony and I are in your room. Like, we're doing maintenance krama, sama krama. We're doing that kind of krama. And then suddenly you have a room that you can explain to somebody and it isn't embarrassing. People are doing different kinds of Ashtanga Yoga here in the same room.

David:
[53:54] Yeah, I think it just takes a lot of knowledge to be able to offer that, to deliver it well.

Russell:
[54:00] But as young people know, we didn't start that way, did we?

David:
[54:03] No, because you have to learn the orthodoxy first. You have to learn all your scales and get really good before you can try to play jazz or whatever. You do the work and then it comes very, very naturally as a maturation of your experience teaching all those years.

Harmony:
[54:18] Yeah, totally. I'm curious, what are you saying now? Because with Sherrod's death, and even I found myself in these situations where I would say, in Mysore, and then I'm like, pause, and then I'm like, well, this is how it would have been done.

David:
[54:33] Yeah, isn't it interesting?

Harmony:
[54:35] Yeah, how are you guys dealing with it? How are you handling it? How are you going through that kind of transition?

David:
[54:44] Yeah i know that that's what really shook me so much too like that i couldn't point to the room you know in my sore as a thing that was happening yeah and and kind of use that support that structure of saying if you go to my sore then this

Jelena:
[55:01] Is how it is

David:
[55:01] Yeah so i'm right because that's what your experience is going to be there yeah yeah and then for that to be taken away it all becomes like a little bit arbitrary and detached.

Russell:
[55:14] Ungrounded is a great word.

David:
[55:15] It's like, well, why is it like this? Now I'm that teacher that, I wasn't crazy about 15 years ago that would say back in the 70s when we did it this way, you know, that's why, you know, I don't want to be like, well.

Russell:
[55:28] But that's, you don't have any choice now.

David:
[55:31] Yeah, yeah. That's why we're devising our own system of yours.

Jelena:
[55:35] We're not that organized. Like, even if we really wanted to, we're too stupid to do something.

Russell:
[55:41] No, but so it's amazing because that sentence is only absurd to the four of us.

David:
[55:45] Yeah.

Russell:
[55:45] To anyone else listening, it was like, yeah, okay, so now you devised your own system. Good. That's what everyone does. But it's no way we're going to do that.

Harmony:
[55:55] Again, not that there's anything wrong with that.

David:
[55:57] But yeah, it's such a good observation that that's the exact same kind of feeling that I keep running up against.

Jelena:
[56:04] Anyway, it's so funny because for the first, it's not funny the way we've been laughing at funny stuff that's not funny. For a slow while, it would make David cry. Like that question, like he would, a few times he teared up and got really emotional and like shaken by it. That now he can't make that reference. You actually can't say that anymore.

David:
[56:28] Or to keep using the past tense.

Jelena:
[56:30] Yeah. This is the way he was teaching.

Russell:
[56:34] I think another really kind of horrendous problem we now have is that if you have your own room and you find there's always somebody in your room that, ooh, they're special. they're really they can do everything they're gonna learn well this happened to Yelena maybe but like right now like you get somebody like Yelena in your room yeah and you say and so you're gonna be a star too just like me and I'm gonna send you to Mysore when you're ready We can't do that.

David:
[57:02] Yeah.

Harmony:
[57:04] You could say that to Yelena. You could say.

Russell:
[57:08] You're mine now forever. You're special. You'll stay with me forever and take over this when I'm gone. That's your only, what else do you have to do?

Harmony:
[57:19] But he could bring her to Sherat's workshop and then to Mysore. And then now it's like, okay, I'm not your teacher. Sherat's your teacher. It's like a whole.

Russell:
[57:28] You pass it over.

Harmony:
[57:29] Transition thing. Where do you send your special students now?

David:
[57:34] Yeah.

Russell:
[57:35] You can't send them to New York. New York's a hellscape. You're not going to send them to London.

David:
[57:39] Yeah. No. No. I mean, are we talking about like asanas and like moving through the sequence someone wants?

Russell:
[57:47] Or I want to be authorized someday. I'm Yelena. Where do I get my special degree?

David:
[57:53] Yeah, it's to be determined.

Harmony:
[57:54] Or is it the end? Also, that's another question. Like, you've been teaching for a long time, David. and you've seen this evolution of yoga teaching.

Harmony:
[58:04] I think teachers get paid less now than when I started teaching in 2002.

David:
[58:09] Sure, yeah. More of them, I guess, now.

Harmony:
[58:12] Is even being a yoga teacher or being authorized, what does that mean? What does that mean for you guys? What does certification mean? What does authorization mean?

Jelena:
[58:21] Honestly, I don't know that certification maybe changes things. Like authorization, like where I was and then getting authorized, that doesn't really change. Maybe because I was already teaching. Maybe it plays differently for someone who wasn't teaching and then they would have gotten authorized. And then that gave them like a confidence or permission or whatever to then step on that path. For me, it was more special because like the way it came about. and I think it's more special that it happened because he passed away. And he told me, Miami, when I told him, because I wanted to ask him if I could come to Virginia and maybe just come for the class in the morning. And he's like, but why aren't you doing the whole thing? And I said, because I'm not authorized. He's like, what?

Harmony:
[59:17] Yeah, he really didn't know sometimes.

Jelena:
[59:20] He can't keep a track of that many people. So getting authorized this season for me was more of like, because it was known. Like he told me in Miami, he's like, well, come to Virginia and in February you're going to get. And so it was more emotional and special because of his passing.

Harmony:
[59:38] Do you think it was emotional and special because you already had his blessing though? Do you think it was like meaningful because he said to you like, oh, what? Like you're not, of course, come to Virginia, which was like the special training for only authorized people. Obviously, he considered you authorized already. And this was just like a symbol of that emotional connection that you had to him. I don't know. You tell me. I'm just throwing it out there.

Jelena:
[1:00:03] I don't know. David kept like the last two years, like he was saying, go ask. And I'm always weird about asking anything. And I always also say this, not because I'm so humble. I'm just weird. And like, I won't ask David to do things. I'd rather be overwhelmed and then get mad at him than ask for help or ask for something. and so David's been on me like go ask and then this season David said if you don't go in I'm gonna go in for you and ask because he thinks you're authorized I've always practiced in the earliest shift which is yeah he just had it all so it makes it I don't know maybe to me makes it special because I had that conversation with him in Miami while we were eating ice cream and just his reaction when i said because i'm not authorized i was like what like then last year he gave me his number so that i could send him pictures of tigers when we went on safari yeah and so i had his number so he's like well why didn't you message me and tell me and i was like i'm not gonna message you about my authorization i was like i have your number to send tiger photos um anyway so for me that's what made it really special but i don't think really teaching wise that it has had like a big impact on me being able to book more workshops or no yeah more students unfortunately no yeah no but no yeah

Harmony:
[1:01:33] I'm curious even for certification david because i mean you two were very popular teachers before you were authorized and before you were certified david i mean you already had like you know as.

Russell:
[1:01:44] Many as you want

Harmony:
[1:01:44] Yeah like everything there you had the books you had the videos you had everything what does certification mean to you what does that that symbol mean right there yeah i.

David:
[1:01:53] Mean um i don't i don't know how to say it like being popular on social media or teaching the workshops around and It's your peers' recognition, or not even your peers, the students, you know, that you've created something that people want to get. And so that's good that you feel good about that. But it's different than Shiratji saying that, certifying you.

Russell:
[1:02:17] There's a validation there for you personally for all the work that you did that was only visible to him.

David:
[1:02:23] Well, he didn't certify me, right?

Russell:
[1:02:28] He didn't ever say that he would do that?

David:
[1:02:30] He never mentioned it.

Russell:
[1:02:31] Can I ask, how far along were you in advance?

David:
[1:02:35] With him, Gandabharandasana. Well, really, Vipreda Shalabhasana. Sure. Funny story about that,

Jelena:
[1:02:43] Too. Oh, that's such a good story.

David:
[1:02:45] I've been there for, like, you know, he was just, he was being really sweet to me, like, for the last little while, kind of making up for all those years when he wasn't. Yeah, he's so strict. And I was scared of him for a long time.

Russell:
[1:02:58] Sure.

David:
[1:02:58] I still was at the end a little bit too. And then, you know, you want it like yellow. And I, like you want to be given something, but you don't want to ask for it because it changes. Right. So I was never, I wasn't chasing him for poses and stuff like that. But I think too, you know, like, um, A bunch of his older students, he stopped kind of...

Harmony:
[1:03:18] Paying attention to, for sure.

David:
[1:03:20] In the same way, you know. But I don't believe him to. I'm not pretty to watch. So I was doing... And I was kind of proud of myself last year. Not this season in Leicester, obviously, but the last year. And I didn't ask him if I could split. But I'd been doing all of intermediate and all of third up to Gundam, the Baron, Vestler for a few years. And every year at the end, I'm like, when do you think I could split? But I always wait till the end of the season. And every year he says next season. But I never just split. I wait for him to tell me that season. And then he never does. So I ask again. So I did it again. And I just, he was standing there. I'd waited. You know how you do. Yeah. Waited for him till I knew I was in his eyeline. And then I did a beautiful lift up into Viparita Dandasana. And then Viparita Shalabasana. And then I'm holding it. And then I come down. And whatever. And then he's not saying anything, so I get up. I'm waiting for him for backbends, and he comes over, and I'm like, when do you think I should split? He's like, well, what poser are you on?

Russell:
[1:04:26] I just saw it. You just saw it, dude. Diparita Shalabhasana.

David:
[1:04:30] And he's like, diparita Shalabhasana? Yeah. He's like, diparita Shalabhasana.

Russell:
[1:04:37] Yeah, he wrote it out for you.

David:
[1:04:38] Yeah, he's like, and he just did that, hmm. hmm, he didn't say anything. And then that was it.

Harmony:
[1:04:47] That like sums up your relationship too.

David:
[1:04:50] That was where we left.

Russell:
[1:04:51] Wow.

Harmony:
[1:04:52] That's insane. That's so funny.

David:
[1:04:56] Way back, I used to go further in my own.

Harmony:
[1:04:59] Yeah, yeah.

David:
[1:05:00] Yeah, with him. And yeah, so that's where I was finished. Wow. I guess the last pose I got from him.

Russell:
[1:05:08] Yeah. And so how did it come about in Mysore? that Shruti offered it to you?

David:
[1:05:15] I was told by Usha, Yelena was being authorized and we all knew that kind of, but there was other people being authorized too. So, and you know,

Russell:
[1:05:25] Tata got certified.

David:
[1:05:27] Tata got certified the month before we were there. So we were there for February. And then I think it was about halfway through the month and Yelena went up to the office. She was going to go get her certificate, whatever authorization thing. and Shruti told me go up and see Usha it's all been organized and I was like what and then we

Jelena:
[1:05:47] Just assumed it was like my paperwork

David:
[1:05:50] Yeah yeah sure and so then I was just sitting there and then Usha did everything with Yelena and then handed me a piece of paper and said put your name down you're being certified and I was like

Jelena:
[1:06:01] No, you said, what? Are you sure?

David:
[1:06:04] Yeah, so I was surprised.

Harmony:
[1:06:07] Yeah?

David:
[1:06:07] Yeah.

Jelena:
[1:06:08] And you just, it was so funny in the office, because he just kept repeating, he's like, but what? Usha, are you sure? And Usha's like, yeah, like, we've talked about it. We don't know who's the we, but Usha said, we've talked about it. It's been discussed. And David's like, really? At some point, I was like, just shut up.

Russell:
[1:06:27] Let's sign up and get out of here, yeah.

Jelena:
[1:06:29] Yeah. Before they change their mind. Take it and run.

Harmony:
[1:06:34] What does it mean to you? I'm so curious. What did the whole situation, how did you feel when that happened?

David:
[1:06:40] I feel very ambivalent because, one, it's not from Shrachi, but it'll never be from Shrachi, you know?

Harmony:
[1:06:47] Yeah.

David:
[1:06:48] And that ship has sailed in a way. And, yeah, I mean, me and the other people that it was given to were all surprised. night

Jelena:
[1:06:59] Um yeah no one you apart from

David:
[1:07:02] Todd thinking about it afterwards like we we went in february to support the shala yeah for our community and shruti and the family yeah but we went there because that's where we've always gone we built our lives around us you know and and um and like what are you gonna do say no or yeah you know no it's

Harmony:
[1:07:25] True honestly i think anyone anyone i mean if i'm honest.

Russell:
[1:07:29] Wait wait wait

Harmony:
[1:07:30] No you be.

Russell:
[1:07:30] Honest i'm about to be honest you be honest if i'm sitting there in that room and shirty and usha are saying we want you to get certified i'm gonna ask them how much really

David:
[1:07:40] How much money

Russell:
[1:07:42] Yeah like if you want me to pay 10 grand you know 10 grand anything less than that i think we can have a discussion as

David:
[1:07:50] Far as i know the price hasn't changed in all these years

Russell:
[1:07:54] As far as i know it really depends on who you are oh yeah it really depends on who you are the price has changed for tim miller paid 150 bucks john campbell paid 3 000 there's a big range i know people that pay i think

Harmony:
[1:08:10] The going rate is 5.

Russell:
[1:08:10] 000 though going rate is 5 000 and so like if you want me to pay 5 000 I really got to think about it.

Harmony:
[1:08:17] I think you'd do it. I think you would do it.

Russell:
[1:08:18] I don't think I would. I don't know.

Harmony:
[1:08:20] But you're not teaching anymore either.

Russell:
[1:08:21] But even if I was teaching anymore, I know it's not going to make me any more money.

Harmony:
[1:08:26] Well, no, it's not.

David:
[1:08:27] I went there to support that place in Shruti. And in a way, she's chosen how we're supposed to support her. Maybe she regrets that.

Russell:
[1:08:37] Oh, man. But support her. She's a multimillionaire in India.

David:
[1:08:43] Not financially. I mean, I don't think that's the motivation there. I hope not.

Russell:
[1:08:48] Okay, so that's what you mean by support.

David:
[1:08:50] Yeah, that's right.

Harmony:
[1:08:50] Energetically.

Russell:
[1:08:51] That's energy, but it's financial energetic support.

David:
[1:08:55] Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine that she's doing that for finance.

Harmony:
[1:09:00] I can't imagine that either. She doesn't need the money.

David:
[1:09:03] She doesn't need the money and she's not, that's not what she was doing there. Yeah.

Russell:
[1:09:06] So in a way, it's a kind of the money is significant, but it's a token symbol in exchange for this validation.

David:
[1:09:15] It's the same. As far as I know, it's the same price that was being asked, say, last year or whatever. So that was all part of that package.

Russell:
[1:09:24] But it's still it's a token gesture. It's not like a hundred grand that's going to actually make a difference to someone.

David:
[1:09:30] No, no, exactly. I mean, I guess she's still taking it. But I also think it has to be something. You have to pay it, I guess, to get that. It doesn't mean anything.

Russell:
[1:09:41] And authorization is thousands of dollars now. I paid $150 for my authorization. Yeah, same. So the scale from authorization to certification is not gigantic. It's not $100,000.

David:
[1:09:53] Now, Yelena paid, I don't know, what was it?

Russell:
[1:09:56] $2,000.

Harmony:
[1:09:58] It's $2,000 for a few, I don't know, maybe 10 years now.

David:
[1:10:02] I don't know. I mean, she is looking to create support, like more support and a network of people that are endorsing the Shala and trying to hold the community together. And that's how I understood it.

Harmony:
[1:10:16] Yeah.

Jelena:
[1:10:17] Yeah.

David:
[1:10:17] But I did know it's complicated.

Harmony:
[1:10:20] But I think this brings up an interesting point because for you, I don't really think that certification... does anything it.

Russell:
[1:10:29] Doesn't it validates well not from

Harmony:
[1:10:33] Shrewton no i on no any certification even if it's like direct from shirat like economically popular no let me go.

Russell:
[1:10:42] Get it from shirat it does something for

Harmony:
[1:10:44] Him no but i want to know for him because you said yes and i think also anyone in your situation probably would have said yes who is there practicing but.

David:
[1:10:54] Well just put yourself in those shoes that you went there yeah

Russell:
[1:10:57] Yeah that's very

David:
[1:10:58] Different he tries to give you something i wasn't

Russell:
[1:11:00] Going to do that either

Harmony:
[1:11:01] Yeah you weren't there i wasn't going to go there exactly if i was there practicing in february and i was not certified and i had just been with shirat when he passed away in virginia yeah and this was offered to me of course i'm going to say yes yeah a hundred percent i say yes every time yeah.

Russell:
[1:11:17] But i'm not that person who's in that

Harmony:
[1:11:19] Position Yeah, that's not my question. But then my question is, what does it mean to you? Because I think that's the most important thing. Because, I mean, it seems like it would be emotional and significant.

David:
[1:11:34] It is emotional, yeah. It's significant in a different way. Like, I don't know. I can't, I don't think it changes anything for me in the sense of what I was doing before in a business sense. Or even, you know, in our community, there's people that are going around and teaching and are known and stuff. So this hasn't changed that in any kind of positive way.

Harmony:
[1:11:56] Has it changed it in a negative way?

David:
[1:11:58] I'm a bit of a target of me.

Harmony:
[1:11:59] That'll pass.

David:
[1:12:00] Yeah, it'll pass. Exactly. So I don't know. But that's what I'm thinking is, okay, going forward, there's a responsibility to it, right? This was the idea of it. And it's certifying your responsibility. My responsibility is still to that shala.

Harmony:
[1:12:15] Yeah.

David:
[1:12:15] And so going forward, that's what I'll continue to do. And I would have anyways without the certificate.

Harmony:
[1:12:21] Exactly.

Russell:
[1:12:22] I would just like to say that I know guys like Russell Kai got certified after doing Kashi Basanai. He's doing the third posture of third series and got certified. How far along you are in advanced, whatever.

David:
[1:12:36] What I know. Yeah, certified that didn't finish third.

Russell:
[1:12:39] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But what I know about you and your stature in the community and your dedication to Sherrod, your unwavering loyalty to him as a teacher, it's completely deserved. And you should be validated to have that certification. And that makes complete sense. And I assumed that he had said, oh, yeah, you'll get certified next trip. And then he died. But I have no doubt that he would have eventually.

David:
[1:13:07] I think eventually.

Russell:
[1:13:08] A year or two years.

Harmony:
[1:13:10] Maybe 20 years.

Russell:
[1:13:11] Maybe 20 years. Maybe. You know, sometimes, you know, he's difficult with people.

Jelena:
[1:13:17] We had a joke that I would have gotten.

David:
[1:13:19] Yeah, she was going to get certified before.

Harmony:
[1:13:22] Probably.

David:
[1:13:23] You would just get authorization and go straight to certify. Thanks, Russ. I appreciate it very much.

Jelena:
[1:13:28] Yeah, that's really kind of.

Russell:
[1:13:29] It's deserved.

Harmony:
[1:13:30] We've both been in the same community as you both. for a long time right yeah and i mean there's sometimes people receive certification and you're like what the fuck no literally wait a second right i don't know if you've had that reaction but i've had that reaction several times yeah but.

David:
[1:13:51] It was also like well that's not my choice

Harmony:
[1:13:53] No exactly so you're just like okay.

Russell:
[1:13:56] And there's people that have finished fourth and not receive certification and have said, what the fuck?

David:
[1:14:01] There was an arbitrary quality to it. And then you might think or whatever, well, I don't know what that's about, but okay. You know, you wouldn't think, I'm going to write a stern letter to Sharad G. Yeah.

Jelena:
[1:14:12] Yeah.

David:
[1:14:13] Or I'm going to I'm going to make a podcast and attack his wife on, you know, like, I mean,

Harmony:
[1:14:19] Yeah, and there's exactly there's amazing practitioners like asana perfect practitioners who never receive certification.

David:
[1:14:26] Absolutely. Absolutely.

Russell:
[1:14:28] So we both know we all know them.

Harmony:
[1:14:29] So when I saw on social media, all of the certifications that were being handed out and the certificates of friendship and support, I don't know what they call it.

David:
[1:14:42] What do they call it? Dedication? Dedication.

Russell:
[1:14:45] Oh, certificate of dedication. That's nice.

Harmony:
[1:14:46] That is nice.

Russell:
[1:14:47] I like it.

Jelena:
[1:14:48] That was apparently his idea that he was going to.

David:
[1:14:52] He did one last year, apparently.

Jelena:
[1:14:53] Yes. One of the people that received it was told by him in Miami that they were going to get it.

Russell:
[1:15:00] That's amazing.

David:
[1:15:00] He wanted to

Jelena:
[1:15:01] Celebrate people in a different way.

Harmony:
[1:15:05] Yeah.

Russell:
[1:15:05] And Allison totally deserves that.

Harmony:
[1:15:07] But there was no one. I mean, when I saw it, I initially was like, what is going on? This is crazy. People are being certified by Sherrod's ghost. Yeah. Right? And you have your reactions, your emotional reactions. I mean, it is like a confusing kind of emotional landscape to cross because you're like, well, what does this mean? Is it valid? Does this make all the other certifications invalid? Or does this what's going on? Right. So you have an emotional reaction, of course.

David:
[1:15:36] Yeah. I think I would have if I hadn't been there and I was seeing it, I would have felt the same way. Totally.

Harmony:
[1:15:43] But then I looked at the people and I was like, you know what?

Russell:
[1:15:47] Yeah.

Harmony:
[1:15:47] What the fuck? This doesn't even really matter because I know all of these people. They're my friends. All of the people that were acknowledged and received certificates on that stage that I saw on the social media posts, I know how much they were dedicated to this practice. I know how many years they put in of, like, blood, sweat, and tears, money, and trips to India, and leaving family, and leaving friends, and leaving their shalas, and just, like, it's hard because people sometimes don't understand that kind of sacrifice unless you've done it, and when you've done that kind of sacrifice in the decades... Because it was decades for everyone there involved of like basically almost annual trips for almost as far as fair. Right.

Russell:
[1:16:43] All of your wealth.

Harmony:
[1:16:45] I mean, you can't. I don't know. I just I was like, I don't think there's an argument. They deserve it. They deserve to be recognized for this. And yeah, are there other people who could have been recognized for sure? One hundred percent. Other people could have been recognized and possibly will be recognized. I don't know.

Jelena:
[1:17:00] Hopefully they will be recognized as well.

Russell:
[1:17:03] I was curious about this because my first impulse was like, but there's like, there's so many like hundreds of Asians who have spectacular practices that we don't know their names, who are also probably like around the same place that Tim is in his practice or Susan Hounsel, you know, like, how are we going to, how does anyone remember them? You know, like, when are they going to get their due? I guess my concern is, were the choices by the judicial board, were they arbitrary? And just like, these are people we know. But like, you don't speak Chinese, maybe you don't know those people. Like, there's hundreds of them that are amazing.

David:
[1:17:45] Yeah.

Jelena:
[1:17:45] And they still can't come to India, right? None of the Chinese students, unless they have a foreign citizenship, can. They're still not able to get the visa. That's why a few of our friends that we know have come all the way to Miami because that was an opportunity for them to come and practice with them. Because since COVID, the relationship between India and China,

David:
[1:18:07] They're not able to come.

Russell:
[1:18:09] God, I didn't know that.

Jelena:
[1:18:10] Yeah. And that's like a large population of the student body from the Shala. And so none of them are still able to come there at all.

David:
[1:18:20] I don't really worry about it anyways, because it's not up to me. None of it is up to me. And it never was. It wasn't up to me when Sherrod was living. And it's not up to me now. It's not my purview. No one's asking me or consulting me.

Jelena:
[1:18:36] No rule day ever.

Russell:
[1:18:41] You're a senior member of the community actually and you're certified i would think that you would be someone that someone would ask their opinion

David:
[1:18:50] Maybe if that's the way it goes it won't even be us that sets that up you know like none of us kind of ownership of those processes and we're not even necessarily owed an explanation you know what i mean that's true i think we need to give shruti space space and time you know like she's got to figure out what she wants to do that way and but it's all up to her it's not up to any of us yeah

Harmony:
[1:19:16] Because at the end of the day she owns the shala it's literally her property and if she decides to continue to invite people to come practice there that's also up to her and her and.

David:
[1:19:27] It's up to them if they want to go you

Russell:
[1:19:29] Know that's right

David:
[1:19:29] And if we're gonna go be good yeah go there and be good and do your practice and Yeah,

Harmony:
[1:19:36] Totally, 100%.

Russell:
[1:19:37] In the same way, the Shala in Gokulam or the Shala in Lakshu-Param was exactly the same mirage. We created the value that it had. We created the value of Guruji's blessing. And then there was some negotiation and people started creating certificates and authorizations. And then we assigned value to those. And it was all our doing. And so, exactly. If people want to do that in Shruti's airplane hangar, then let's admire how the epic unfolds.

Harmony:
[1:20:07] Because the student picks the teacher. That's at the end of the day. The student picks the teacher.

Jelena:
[1:20:12] When we were there in february like it was very difficult time but in another way it was like really beautiful and when we realized that the shala was going to be open after all we just said yeah we're gonna go we were supposed to go in february and we said we would go and the energy in the shala was really beautiful and it was very different of course it was going to be different that it wasn't going to be the same, but it was beautiful in a way that we came not knowing that there would be any assisting. Like we signed up that we were coming when we all received the letter saying that we can, we all show up and everyone's on their mat. No one's assisting anyone. There's no teacher. There's nothing.

David:
[1:20:56] That made sense to me too.

Jelena:
[1:20:58] And that we were like, yeah, that makes perfect sense. We go and we show the support for the community. And when I speak of the community, like when you think about how many people in Mysore and Gokulam depend on us to come and have made their livelihoods around having these bursts of bubbles when the people come from abroad and they go to the restaurants and the shops and buy the food and rent the apartments and that supports their family, that supports their livelihood. So it wasn't just about supporting the family, but it was supporting like the community that's created around the Shala. And so we showed up with that intention. And I think everyone else that did showed up with that intention. So there's that. Then there is Shruti and the family who, I mean, she has just lost her husband. And yet she is showing up, opening the Shala and holding the space for us, you know, in a way that we can come together and practice.

Jelena:
[1:22:01] And there was something so beautiful to practice in the room. And you look around the room and you're like, oh, I know that face. and I know that face and I know that person. And it felt really healing. And there was days when the whole Shala was just crying. And then there was the days when we were all giggling. And then on top of that, the month before, they started coming up with this kind of assisting system and watching people and even adding poses on. And so then in February, that continued. But none of that was planned when the doors were open. It was organic.

Jelena:
[1:22:38] And it kept growing into what it was in February. And then Todd messaged me to say that he was going to get certified, which was a total shock to him as well. But we all were there when Shiraji said in Miami. So we knew that part was coming. And then I remember saying to David, I was like, if Todd's going to get certified, I listed the people.

David:
[1:23:05] She did, actually.

Jelena:
[1:23:06] I called the people I said and these are the next people that need to be certified and David's like why do you say that and I said the time like it's just about the time like how many trips have all of you taken and we're not even talking about one decade like 22 years or plus of people showing up like does that not deserve a celebration and for me the way I understood that was being done in a way of this very sad moment and it's still ongoing there was like this little burst of celebrating his legacy by acknowledging people in different ways yeah certifying certain people and then also acknowledging senior students that have been coming and dedicating their lives and to me like being a student in that room and watching it happen was very it felt like unifying and uplifting.

David:
[1:24:05] There's something too about maintaining the viability of the Shala by keeping it as a place for students coming and new people coming where there's something that they're going to get from being there. So keeping that place. that option open of giving authorization or certification or new asanas, you know, that, that is going to, that keeps it a living space, right? Like growth can happen there and change can happen. And maybe first I know some people it's happening too fast. It was too soon for that to, I understand that. But at the same time, I can understand the concern as well. that would motivate Shruti to want people to see, look, we can do this. There's a reason to come here. And we can maintain this. We'll figure out a way forward.

Russell:
[1:24:56] Yeah.

Jelena:
[1:24:57] It'd be really interesting if someone did that interview. There was quite a few first-timers, which I was most impressed with. Like that after all of it, they didn't cancel or go to another Shala, which some people did do, go to one of the other um places

David:
[1:25:16] In a competition competition yeah

Jelena:
[1:25:18] But the people that showed up for the first time and so many of them approached us at the end of the trip and they're like this is our first time and we can't wait to be back ah

Harmony:
[1:25:28] Yeah and they.

Jelena:
[1:25:30] Absolutely loved it and to me was like but what did you like tell me what

Russell:
[1:25:35] Was it yeah i got to study with kina mcgurk that's awesome who wouldn't like that

Jelena:
[1:25:39] Like you're surrounded by senior teachers like there was you know and they're in the room they're walking around some of those people you've seen them maybe online you've studied with some of them because a lot of first timers in the shala have come and studied with all of us somewhere abroad you know and probably what inspired them in the first place to make that trick and so for some of them to say like i felt like that was like such a That was like the most important feedback for the Shala is that the first-timers loved it. Because it made sense we would.

Russell:
[1:26:15] You know, for me, like when I went to Mysore, it was not the same as being in a real Mysore room in New York. And it was like, nobody's paying attention. No one's adjusting. You know, like this is a chaos in here. And I go back to New York and I get some real work done. And because you're getting adjusted a lot, you're getting a lot of attention in your practice. But that didn't stop me from going back to Mysore year after year after year, because it's really kind of amazing being in Mysore, being in India.

David:
[1:26:49] You're doing a different kind of work.

Russell:
[1:26:51] Oh, for sure.

Harmony:
[1:26:52] I think we had different experiences because I never had a teacher, a regular teacher. I never had a room to practice in. So I didn't have any room. I was just like by myself and I was teaching all the time. So I was always practicing by myself in the morning or with fellow teachers when I was at the retreat center practice together in the morning. But there was no like Mysore room for me unless I was in India. And so that was the only.

Russell:
[1:27:17] So you've never really experienced it.

Harmony:
[1:27:19] I've never had a Mysore teacher outside of Shraddhan Gurdjie.

Russell:
[1:27:22] You never really. So. Never have one.

Harmony:
[1:27:25] Like for a long period of time, like over like the longest would be a couple of weeks, you know, at like in Goa, Purple Valley or something where I'd practice with a teacher for a couple of weeks. So there's something magical about being in that room with other practitioners, having that routine, not having to go to work or do anything else, just like living the yoga life, doing the chanting and doing the studying, the philosophy and- Learning an instrument. Yeah, eating the food.

Russell:
[1:27:55] I mean- Sure, it'd be an amazing experience for a first-timer. I'm not surprised.

Harmony:
[1:27:58] And being in the community, I mean, there's something so powerful about being in this, with this group of people. I mean, for us, I don't know, maybe we were lucky that we had smaller groups of people when we were coming up because... You know, the relationships and the friendships and the connections, like what we were saying at the beginning, it is like family. Even if you don't see someone or talk to them or even if you're like, oh, that's just so and so or like, you know, you have all these like feelings, different feelings about people. At the heart of it, there's a shared lifeblood that there's respect there in some way, typically, you know, even if you're like, oh, that person's insane. They're crazy. I don't know what they're doing.

Russell:
[1:28:40] You know my my uncle will break it's also insane and crazy yeah

Harmony:
[1:28:44] Exactly like you feel them you know them and you're like yeah we're gonna go hang out and have a beer or whatever.

Russell:
[1:28:50] The joke that i would make and i love susan dearly but the joke that i would often make people would say to me is like well what do you think the community is going to think like you're getting a divorce what is the community going to think and i would say to them like you mean susan housewell and that's what they mean by community they mean she's the one that's going to be like telling everybody you know what russell did and it's like yeah that's what the community thinks what i'm trying to say is that the community is a construction that we make and it's really just our friendships with our people and from our particular period of time and that's our community but what in some way you've you've posited or created a construct where the community is the thing that needs to do something or be something other than it's just your own circle of friends and that there's a responsibility to this construct that we have to have government socialist intervention because we are canadian on the salvation of this community right so do you think so and what is our responsibility if so

David:
[1:29:59] Well, I think it's going to change who you are in the community. Like any community, different people have different roles. The ones of us that have been around for a long time and are putting ourselves in the position of being teachers, then our role is responsibility, like is how to carry things forward in a positive way and continue our own studies and things like that. And then if you're newer to the community, then you get to kind of enjoy the ride and learn, be supported by those people,

Russell:
[1:30:33] You know?

David:
[1:30:34] Like, it's not one of those things where everyone has to pay dues. I mean, we all pay our due by practicing, right? Getting on the mat. But that's what kind of gives us membership. Yeah. But I think everyone's got different roles in that sense, if I'm understanding the question properly.

Russell:
[1:30:49] So thinking of the community as a lineage and that we have a responsibility to carry on what we learned to a new generation and that's community and we have a responsibility to that.

David:
[1:31:00] Yeah, I think that's what I'm saying for sure, because we're all more or less saying the same thing, like interested in the same thing and saying this is what we want to learn and what we're interested in. And yeah, now even more so, our responsibility as the people that have the direct experience of practicing with Batabi Joyce or with Shirachi, then we have to figure out how to carry that forward. Like it becomes, well, in my opinion, it's more valuable now than mine in that sense, right?

Harmony:
[1:31:33] Yeah, there's more of a pull, more of a calling to show up and represent in a way.

David:
[1:31:40] Maybe that's just for a while. Maybe who knows what's going to emerge and what's going to happen at the Shala. Maybe it'll be a place we can say again, like, if you go to the Shala, then, or this is the way it is in Mysore.

Harmony:
[1:31:53] Yeah.

David:
[1:31:53] But right now, it's up to us to kind of carry that.

Russell:
[1:31:57] This is the way that we've done it, and we have to actually now defend it in some way based on our own experience of why we do it this way.

David:
[1:32:05] Yeah.

Jelena:
[1:32:06] Yeah, but I was also talking to David, like I study a lot with Jack Kornfield. And so in his teachings, his teacher, Ajah Chan, has passed away a long time ago. But when he speaks and he says, my teacher would say this, or my teacher taught me this, or this is where I learned it. there was never in my head as a student of jack cornfield ever a doubt that this is how it was done and to me like they're also very interesting group of people there's jack cornfield and sharon salzberg and joseph campbell and if you look at that whole bubble of them who were one of the first to go and then bring insightful meditation and vipassana to the west like look none of their teachers are alive anymore, right? Of course they're not. And the way those teachings and traditions have even become perhaps more popularized around the world now, like of course they're alive in the home countries where they come from, but now around the world too. And these were all the students of Ajachan or whichever is the other teacher that they studied with. And it never made any of the teachings lesser because there was no chance for me to go and study with Ajachan.

Harmony:
[1:33:24] Totally. I think what you're saying is spot on and powerful. The essence is being transmitted in the teaching itself, and it doesn't necessarily need to rely on a place or a center or a person, but it's that you've done the practice and you've studied with that and you've received that transmission and you both of you as all the teachers are who have this seed are transmitting themselves the teachings and that's what's actually really important.

Jelena:
[1:33:54] Yeah. And then it goes back, I think, to Harmony, what you've been emphasizing too. It's like, and then it's students' responsibility, which I think is so important for students to realize that it is their responsibility. They're the ones that are supposed to do all the work of figuring out who's my teacher, who am I going to follow, do the research, spend time with people, and then choose and stick. And so it just comes back to this circle of, again, like you find the lineage that speaks to you that will allow you to do the mindfulness practice that you want to do and that you've been drawn to. And then you as a student have to put just as much work as whoever's the teacher holding that lineage alive for you.

Harmony:
[1:34:41] 100%. Yeah.

Russell:
[1:34:43] Wow.

Harmony:
[1:34:43] Otherwise, you don't get anything out of it. You can go study with, I don't know, Richard Freeman all day long. But if you don't do any of the work yourself, you're not really going to get anything out of it. You're going to listen to what he's saying. Or I can come to your room and hang out with you guys. But, you know, if I don't actually get on my mat and start doing something, there's not going to be any transformation that happens.

Jelena:
[1:35:04] But I think it also goes back to your question, Russell, about the community. And again, I get this. I'm really drawn to Jack for many reasons. I've studied with him for quite some time. The emphasis on the sangha and the importance of sangha in any spiritual pursuit. And that if you don't have sangha, you're basically not going to make it. Because...

Jelena:
[1:35:32] Sangha is what gives you the support. And I sometimes see us teachers, that's maybe the most important part of our job is that one, we create safe, inclusive spaces where everyone feels welcome to show up. But two, that we create this community or not, we create it by holding that space. you know like we're the we have the key but the community creates itself and the community supports itself and i always think about these change room conversations that you walk into and how deep and profound they are and how vulnerable people are and people in the room practicing and crying like when do you get to just cry and be yourself in the room and people are going to hold you and be supportive and non-judgmental. And so I think this sangha is so important. And I think all of us that showed up in February, and not just February, like the two months before that as well, in the moments of this deep grief, you become aware of that. Yeah. We can lift each other up.

Harmony:
[1:36:42] Yeah.

Russell:
[1:36:43] I've often said to people who are thinking about opening up shalas, is like the most important thing you can have is a change room yeah and a change room means that you'll have community and you'll have people who know each other and if they know each other they'll come back but

David:
[1:36:59] Eddie just had that bathroom for a while yeah

Russell:
[1:37:02] There was a kind of a room like a like a like a open locker and i once got to see william defoe's dick in there oh like i really felt like i was a part of something hopefully

David:
[1:37:13] That wasn't brushed with greatness

Russell:
[1:37:15] There was a brush with greatness actually and it was like i really feel like i have a story that i can keep forever now and i always have a like a connection to this place to this temple to a special member special member i just really want to say how much i appreciate you guys sharing this i know you guys were there. And so this is hard. There's some grief to this as well. And being there is different with him than not. So I just want to thank you for having the grace to come on with us.

David:
[1:37:50] Thank you very much for having us. I appreciate the topics and the direction it went in. It was good.

Jelena:
[1:37:56] Yeah. And the laugh.

David:
[1:37:58] Yeah.

Harmony:
[1:37:58] I want to say one more thing. I think what you're saying about community is really important. And I think teachers also need to have supports and community amongst themselves. And we need to also support each other. That's one thing I wanted to say. The second thing I wanted to say was, I received a back then adjustment from you in Mysore, David. I don't know if you remember. Do you remember?

David:
[1:38:21] No.

Harmony:
[1:38:21] When you were assisting Sherat one year, maybe 2015? 16. 16? Yeah. And I got a lovely back massage afterwards. And Shirat yelled across the room, David, no back massage.

David:
[1:38:42] That was probably the thing he said to me the most. Yeah.

Harmony:
[1:38:48] And I was like, don't stop, please. Don't stop.

David:
[1:38:52] No massage. I remember being traumatized by him catching me all the time, shouting that. It was like furtively looking around before I would give people squishes. And I would still, even last time I was assisting him in Miami, this past October, and I would still have the same thing would constantly occur to me. And no massage.

Harmony:
[1:39:14] No massage. It's funny because I often, when I think of you, whenever someone mentions your name to me, I always think, no massage.

David:
[1:39:24] You know what was funny?

Jelena:
[1:39:25] And that year, he comes back to the studio and he's like, everyone, like, we've taken this too. Because we give people like, you know, like people are living their everyday lives.

David:
[1:39:37] We give people the size.

Jelena:
[1:39:38] They got to run to work, go pick up the kids, whatever. Like, so we released the back after the back bend. And so David comes back and he's like, no one, anything, just hands, push, 10 seconds, go. Yeah. And he was like, so traumatized, literally. For coming back and having been yelled at for a month. Then all of us were like, okay, fine. So we start doing that. And at first, all the students were kind of like,

Harmony:
[1:40:05] Where's my massage?

Jelena:
[1:40:08] And after a month, our manager starts getting complaints at the front desk. And it first starts with students going over and saying, I think like Yelena's like upset with me. Like for a week, like she's just like pushes on me and walks away. And then our manager was like, what? No, that doesn't make sense. But then stories started piling up with basically every teacher and every assistant is mad at someone. And then we realized that it comes back to us. And then the students were just like, no, you need to bring the massages back. And then two months later, David was like, okay, fine. Like everyone was complaining to our manager.

Harmony:
[1:40:48] You had like a pro to this.

Russell:
[1:40:50] The same thing happened to me in Taiwan when I was told to stop holding the buttocks of all the students. And I was like, no, Sharad said that I can't do that anymore. But that's the way Batavi Joy is taught. You do the backbends, you hold their buttocks, really. I said, no, he gave me the waggy fingers, Sharad gave me the waggy fingers, no more. But then the complaints came in. It's like, how come no one's holding my ass after backbends?

David:
[1:41:14] I was coming for that.

Russell:
[1:41:15] I was here for that.

David:
[1:41:17] Yeah. Yeah.

Harmony:
[1:41:19] It's been too much fun. Thank you guys so much.

Jelena:
[1:41:22] Thanks for inviting me.

Russell:
[1:41:23] Thank you. It's been a real pleasure.

Harmony:
[1:41:25] If we ever decide to cross the country, we'll come say hi in person. Please do.

David:
[1:41:30] Yeah, same.

Harmony:
[1:41:31] Thank you so much for listening today. I hope this conversation inspired you to explore how pranayama or breathwork can transform your relationship with stress and support your body through different transitions, hormonal transitions or life transitions. And if today's conversation resonated with you, I'm so excited to share my premier Pranayama training and teacher certification course. It's now open for enrollment for this week, Ancient Breathing 2.0. This is an intimate six-week program where I'm going to guide you through creating a personalized Pranayama practice based on your unique constitution and needs. Together, we're going to improve your physical health, deepen your yoga practice.

Harmony:
[1:42:19] Cultivate more emotional stability so you can feel more at ease and truly love your life again. So whether you're dealing with anxiety or disruptive sleep, hormonal fluctuations, or you're simply seeking a deeper connection to that powerful spiritual energy within yourself, this program offers the tools for you to transform your daily experience. you'll receive live community support at least six guided practice sessions pre-recorded modules and all the bonus content there's so much in this program and this year I'm offering an extension which is the certification program so if you want to learn how to help your clients and students events.

Harmony:
[1:43:13] With developing their own pranayama practice. This is the program for you. I want you to come inside and sign up. It's open this week, Ancient Breathing 2.0. You can find the link in the show notes. Check it out on harmonyslater.com. And remember, until next time, your breath is always with you. It's your most powerful and accessible tool for finding harmony in everyday life.

Harmony:
[1:43:45] That's it. We've concluded another episode of the Finding Harmony podcast. I just want to thank you so much for doing the work that changes the world starting with yourself. It truly does make a huge difference. Please make sure you have your automatic downloads turned on wherever you listen so you don't miss any of the upcoming episodes I have so much more magic I can't wait to share with you lastly if you're on Instagram I love connecting and hearing from you so come on over and say hello at finding harmony podcast and you can also come say hello to me personally at harmony slater official thank you again for being here I cannot wait to share more with you in our next episode.